In 2008, Christian Dueblin had the opportunity to conduct an insightful interview with museum founder and art collector Angela Rosengart. Following her death on 30 June 2026, we are republishing this interview in remembrance of this remarkable art dealer and patron of the arts.
Hier finden Sie das Original-Interview in Deutsch.
Angela Rosengart, born in 1932 in Lucerne, comes from a family of art dealers. As a young girl, Angela Rosengart already worked together with her father, Siegfried Rosengart, in the art trade. After the death of her father in 1985, she continued to run the gallery. In 1992, she founded the Rosengart Foundation, of which she is president and to which she transferred her collection of paintings, comprising more than 200 works accumulated over decades.
Since 2002, the Rosengart Collection has been housed in the former building of the Swiss National Bank in the centre of Lucerne, which she purchased for her foundation, and is open to the public. Angela Rosengart, who is also the director of the museum, answers questions from Christian Dueblin and talks about her favourite painters Paul Klee and Pablo Picasso as well as the history of Galerie Rosengart in Lucerne.
Xecutives.net: In 1920, your father was sent to Lucerne by Heinrich Thannhauser, his uncle, who ran a renowned gallery in Munich, to establish and manage a branch of the Munich gallery in this city. Because of your father’s occupation, you came into contact with art and with very
well-known painters at a very young age. What are your first memories of Lucerne and art?
Angela Rosengart: As a child, I only perceived art very much on the sidelines. When I was about four years old, my father began taking me with him to the museum in Lucerne. I remember that he often talked to acquaintances there and I suddenly became just a secondary person. This annoyed me, and after one such visit I told my parents that I would never go to a museum again (laughs). This is one of my early childhood memories concerning art.
Xecutives.net: What were the reasons that Heinrich Thannhauser sent your father to Switzerland, to Lucerne, and not to a world metropolis such as Paris, London or Rome?
Angela Rosengart: In 1919, shortly after the First World War, it had become very difficult to conduct business from Germany. The uncle knew that many wealthy Americans spent their holidays in Lucerne and the surrounding area and stayed in the beautiful hotels on the lake, went on excursions and were interested in art.
They had money and could buy paintings. At that time, there were also other German galleries in Lucerne. The thinking was that the more such galleries were established in Lucerne, the more guests would come to the city and buy art.
As my father told me, collectors went to Paris but also to Lucerne at that time to acquire paintings. Both places were a kind of “Mecca” of the flourishing art trade. There were also French galleries in Lucerne. However, due to the stock market crash of 1929 and the ensuing economic
crisis, most galleries were forced to cease their activities in Lucerne. The many solvent tourists and potential buyers of art from America suddenly no longer travelled to Europe and to Lucerne. The galleries concerned returned to their home countries, with the exception of my father, who decided to stay in Lucerne.
Xecutives.net: Did your father have a special business model that he followed, which was superior to that of the other galleries and secured his business despite the collectors staying away?
Angela Rosengart: He did not have to or want to reorient himself. The business continued, but with the absence of potential buyers, it was greatly reduced. As early as 1928, the company had been registered in my father’s name, and in 1938 he definitively separated from the family
in Germany. He was not wealthy and had great difficulties at the beginning due to the crisis. I know from his stories that one day during this difficult time he sold a Van Gogh at half the purchase price and was still happy to have been able to obtain some capital again. It was only around 1938 that the art business started to pick up again. At that time, he was able to acquire important customers and thus gained a little more breathing space.
Xecutives.net: Many paintings for which incredible sums are paid today and which are admired by many people were “stumbling blocks” at the time. Younger painters in particular had great
difficulties establishing themselves with their new art styles. What effect did this have on the trade in paintings? Was it not also a risk to support these young artists?
Angela Rosengart: This has to be viewed in a differentiated way. The Impressionists had a very difficult time from 1870 to around 1890. Their art was ridiculed at the time. It was believed that the Impressionist style was not painting. After 1910, however, they were already appreciated by a broad audience, and the paintings were actively traded. The young painters of that time, however, that is, those of the 1910s and 1920s of the last century, such as Pablo Picasso, Georges Braque, Marc Chagall and Paul Klee, were still fighting for recognition.
My father traded in Impressionists at the time, but he also took care of these young painters, whose talent and quality he recognised. He bought and sold works by, among others, Cézanne, Manet, Monet, Pissarro and Renoir, important Impressionists who were in demand on the market.
The money the gallery earned from these paintings gave it a certain freedom to trade in young artists such as Matisse and Picasso. As with the Impressionists in the 19th century, it took many years before these young talents were also accepted. In addition to the ability to recognise talent and quality, it actually took courage and a certain willingness to take risks to offer these paintings.
Xecutives.net: In 1933, the political situation made things very difficult for many people in Germany. At the time, the painter Paul Klee, when he came to Switzerland from Düsseldorf, said that Germany smelled of corpses. He seemed to foresee the misery and horror that would follow later. What was going through your parents’ minds at this time as they observed all this from Switzerland?
Angela Rosengart: Klee was very deeply affected at the time. He was not Jewish, but he was counted among the so-called degenerate artists, which resulted in him losing his position as a professor at the Academy in Düsseldorf immediately after the Nazis came to power. My father was more oriented towards France in the art trade. There, he also maintained good contacts with painters and dealers. Klee, who lived and worked in Germany until 1933, was an exception. In France, the situation was not as bad as in Germany.
Although the many artists were ostracised by the Germans, they were not persecuted and attacked by their own compatriots, as was the case in Germany after 1933. The Expressionists were most affected by this campaign. Their art in particular appeared degenerate to those in power. This even applied to Van Gogh and Gauguin.
Xecutives.net: Paul Klee must have been a very versatile artist. Even at a young age, he stood out as a gifted musician. He was also active as a writer, gave lectures on art, and of course he was a very good painter who mastered all techniques. What fascinated you so much about Klee as a child?
Angela Rosengart: Paul Klee was an excellent violinist. His wife was a piano teacher. Unfortunately, I never met him. When he died, I was only eight years old. I cannot say exactly why I was so attracted to his art. There was something about his paintings that fascinated me. When I was thirteen, I saw a Klee exhibition in my father’s gallery and was captivated by this world of colours and forms, as well as by the poetry and humour of his painting titles. I remember that I won the heart of Klee’s widow, Lily Klee, because I knew all the titles of the paintings in the exhibition by heart and was able to recite them. I was completely at home in this world and had a special relationship with each work. Of course, at the time I did not yet understand the paintings in an intellectual sense. A deeper understanding of them only developed much later.
Xecutives.net: As I see it, there can be tensions between the activity of the art trade and collecting art. What one buys usually has to be resold. I could imagine that many decisions to sell a painting again were not easy. How did you deal with this tension and interface between art and commerce?
Angela Rosengart: They are not interfaces, but rather it is about how one approaches and conducts the business. When I started working for my father, he impressed upon me that the profession of an art dealer only made sense if one practised it with all one’s love and with one’s heart. One had to select paintings as if they were intended for one’s own walls. Thus, in trading, it was not only about business and financial interests. Behind the business were a constant commitment to quality and a passion. If one works in this way, there are always works that become so dear to one that one can no longer bring oneself to give them away. One is convinced of the significance of a painting and has the need to continue having it around.
Of course, many customers and visitors came who did not understand the quality and importance at the time. I remember that a customer to whom my father had shown a wonderful Picasso from 1922 offered 36,000 francs for the painting. The price my father had quoted for it was 45,000 francs. The customer’s approach annoyed him so much that he told him that the painting was now no longer for sale. He realised that the customer was not aware of the significance of the painting. Today, it hangs in the museum of the Rosengart Foundation.
This reminds me of another incident: In 1948, my father organised a Klee exhibition in the gallery again. I was just in the office, and my father was receiving a customer. Suddenly, he came to me and said that he had really been afraid that the customer wanted to buy a Klee painting that was particularly dear to him. He was afraid of having to give the painting away. I suggested putting it aside, and we kept it permanently. “Fenced In” is also hanging in the museum today.
Xecutives.net: Did it also happen that you and your father searched for specific paintings on the market or from artists at the request of customers?
Angela Rosengart: No, that did not really happen with us. We always bought only for ourselves and then looked for the buyers. The gallery was on Haldenstrasse near the Hotel National, and the door opened onto the street. People walked past our shop, sometimes came in, and we presented our works. Sometimes we made notes. For example, we knew what kind of Picasso painting a customer liked and would then draw their attention to new paintings.
Xecutives.net: At that time, these paintings also cost a lot of money, but they were still affordable. Today, things are completely different. Many of these paintings change owners for tens of millions of dollars. What do you think of this development in prices on the art market?
Angela Rosengart: Some tens of thousands of francs were amounts that certain people could afford back then, even without having won the lottery. Today, unfortunately, things are different. Strictly speaking, I find it repulsive. This development is simply disgusting. The paintings are, so to speak, nothing more than shares or soulless objects that are traded like oil or sugar! My father was once asked by a customer whether a painting in which the customer was interested would also increase in value. My father replied that if he thought that way, he would be better off buying shares or gold bars instead of art!
Xecutives.net: Today, many paintings are sold all over the world. You find them in Russia, Dubai or China. The prices are often astronomical. What goes through your mind when you follow such deals on the art market?
Angela Rosengart: I am completely frustrated! I myself can no longer participate in the art trade at all. I have always loved and bought Picasso’s late works. At the time, however, many people were of the opinion that these late works were of poor quality. Even friends of Picasso rejected them. My father and I, however, were always convinced that the works were at the same high level as the earlier ones. In 1969, we showed an exhibition with magnificent late works by Picasso. Our customers – collectors and museum people – stood in front of them without understanding. It was only long after Picasso’s death that people began to recognise the power contained in these late works. Therefore, I was still able to buy paintings at affordable prices for a long time.
Xecutives.net: What exactly should one understand by an affordable price?
Angela Rosengart: At the time, one of the large Picasso paintings in the hall with the late works in the museum was priced at 450,000 francs.
Xecutives.net: What would the painting fetch today if you were to sell it or have it auctioned?
Angela Rosengart: Many times that amount! The quality of the painting is exceptional. At some point, the price development will probably return to normal. There are not many people in the world who can spend that much money.
Xecutives.net: Did it ever happen that a customer was considered unworthy or not worthy enough of a painting and was therefore not sold a painting?
Angela Rosengart: Many people came into the gallery. Some paintings were hanging on the wall. Others, however, were kept in a little room. We would then take out the paintings we wanted to show or that customers specifically wanted to see. It did happen that we did not show certain people everything. My father had a good feeling for where a painting might belong and where it might not. We always wanted to “place” paintings and not simply sell them.
Xecutives.net: There are other art dealers in Switzerland who also enjoy worldwide fame. One of these people is Ernst Beyeler with his now world-famous Fondation in Riehen. Did you have contact with other art dealers in Switzerland?
Angela Rosengart: My father maintained friendly contact with many colleagues. Ernst Beyeler, however, only began his activities much later, when my father had already been in the business for many decades. We did not have that much contact with him. But since we were all members of the Swiss Art Dealers Association, we did meet regularly at the association’s events. My father and I also visited the exhibitions in his gallery. And at the invitation of Ernst Beyeler, I attended the opening of the Fondation Beyeler in Riehen. There were transactions between art dealers. This was even quite common. We did not do this very often, however, and when we did, it was more often with French colleagues.
Xecutives.net: I would like to briefly turn to Pablo Picasso. One reads that he painted and portrayed you five times. I was in your museum again earlier and counted six pictures of you by Picasso.
Angela Rosengart: (Laughs) The original zinc plate of the 1964 lithograph is hanging on the wall next to the print. Picasso also gave me the plate, and it is unusual to get to see such a plate. Many people find this confusing, and I am repeatedly asked about it. But it seems interesting to me that one can compare the actual original – the plate on which Picasso drew with lithographic crayon – with the print, which is of course laterally reversed.
Xecutives.net: Picasso is undoubtedly regarded as a genius. However, he is also described as a difficult person, and in his dealings with women he is described as a macho and selfish person. You met Picasso many times and observed him. As someone who witnessed that time, how do you see Picasso as a person and in his dealings with women?
Angela Rosengart: Since the film that was made about him a few years ago, he has been portrayed in the way you describe. I myself, however, never experienced him that way and also described this in my little book “Visits to Picasso”. I never heard anything like that from Jacqueline Picasso either, with whom I was very close friends. On the contrary, he revered women, needed them and always behaved towards them with great respect.
Xecutives.net: Jacqueline Picasso and Marie-Thérèse Walter, however, both took their own lives.
Angela Rosengart: That is correct. Jacqueline committed suicide. However, that only happened many years after Picasso’s death. She never came to terms with his death. Marie-Thérèse Walter also took her own life – likewise many years after her separation from Picasso. Many authors portray a distorted picture of this man. Françoise Gilot, the mother of his children Paloma and Claude, may have contributed to this distorted picture. Incidentally, she was the one who left him and not the other way around, which was very unusual for Picasso. Françoise Gilot had friends who exerted a great influence on her. One of them is Arianna Stassinopoulos. She later wrote a book about Picasso that is repulsive and also does an injustice to Jacqueline. The disgusting film is based on it. I regret this one-sided portrayal and repeatedly try to correct it.
Xecutives.net: Picasso was a brilliant painter. A few years ago, I saw two paintings from his early youth in the museum in Como that fascinated me and had absolutely nothing to do with all his later works. These early paintings reminded me very much of works by Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael. And at the time he was only about 16 years old!
Angela Rosengart: The early paintings are astonishing. They remained with the family, with his sister and her sons, until Picasso arranged for them to be handed over to the city of Barcelona in the early 1960s. They are all now in the Picasso Museum there.
Xecutives.net: You have transferred more than 200 works by renowned artists from your collection to a foundation and thereby entrusted them to a legal entity. How is it ensured that the paintings and the museum will continue as you wish?
Angela Rosengart: I must preface this by saying that I deliberately did not donate the collection to a public museum in Lucerne. In the old meeting room in the museum, you can see a film in which I explain this in an interview. The Rosengart Foundation is independent. If a museum or a city had simply become the owner of the collection, I would have no way of doing anything if things happened that I did not want. In the foundation, which I currently lead as president, I can exert influence and express my wishes. At some point, someone else will take over this leadership. However, the members must abide by the founder’s wishes.
Xecutives.net: A debate has just erupted in this very context regarding the Reinhart museums in Winterthur. What do you think about it?
Angela Rosengart: I find it very sad! The founder’s wishes must be respected. Reinhart donated his paintings at the time and contributed his ideas and wishes. The collections must now be continued in accordance with his wishes. It must be accepted that he did not want exhibitions. I absolutely do not want that in my museum either.
Xecutives.net: Ernst Beyeler does this very successfully at his Fondation.
Angela Rosengart: The initial situation in my museum is different from that at the Fondation Beyeler. Ernst Beyeler deliberately created rooms for such exhibitions when the building was constructed. There are also more works in the Rosengart Museum. It is therefore easier to do without exhibitions. Furthermore, exhibitions are an incredibly costly undertaking that can drive an institution into bankruptcy.
Xecutives.net: Ms Rosengart, you told me that Peter Ludwig, the founder of the Ludwig Museum in Cologne, came to see you after your father’s death and asked you what you intended to do now and, when you replied that you would continue the business, asked: “Yes, can you do that?”
Angela Rosengart: (Laughs) He was the typical tycoon and, moreover, seven years older than me. After his remark, I was devastated and thought that if my father had had a son who had worked with him for 38 years, no one would have asked such a question. That really depressed me. But it soon proved to be a source of energy. I pulled myself together and carried on. I wanted to show what I was capable of. I had worked very independently with my father. We were on an equal footing and decided together on everything that was important. I therefore had no doubt that I could also run the business on my own. And I wanted to prove that to Mr Ludwig as well. When he made his first purchase from me a year later, a Picasso drawing, I was inwardly triumphant.
Xecutives.net: I hope you then adjusted the price upwards a little!
Angela Rosengart: (Laughs) I would never have done such a thing anyway. But with Peter Ludwig, that would never have been possible, because he was very well informed.
Xecutives.net: John F. Walter, a good friend and writer, told me after his visit to the Rosengart Museum that he had never seen such a beautiful and coherent collection. Such reactions are often heard. In your opinion, what are these positive impressions of your collection based on?
Angela Rosengart: It is the personal aspect of the collection that gives it its special appeal and atmosphere. A museum is normally always the work of a whole series of directors and curators, all of whom have contributed their own tastes and ideas over decades. Perhaps one or the other did this without much excitement. The collection was not an idea of my father’s or mine that had existed from the very beginning. The collection developed slowly, without us intending to create a collection. All our paintings were chosen with the heart. The personal aspect has therefore become part of it over the decades, and the quality was always high.
I often hear that visitors appreciate the atmosphere of the museum. The building has a very classical character. The rooms that the architect Roger Diener created for me are designed in such a way that one feels comfortable in them. One could almost think that the National Bank already knew in 1924, when it commissioned the building, that it would one day be converted into a museum!
Xecutives.net: Ms Rosengart, what do you wish for Switzerland, for Lucerne, for your museum and for the artists in Switzerland?
Angela Rosengart: That things continue calmly and that Lucerne, a city that is very dependent on tourism, can continue to prosper. I hope that tourism does not decline. Hundreds of thousands of people have visited the Rosengart Museum. Many people come to our city specifically because of the collection. In this way, we also contribute something to its positive development. Just now, I read a lovely entry in the guest book. It said that the journey from Bremen to here had been worthwhile. Such statements are wonderful and make me very happy.
We must take care to maintain our high standard of living in Switzerland. It is important that people with a “small” job can also live well. I recently read again that in Italy certain families have to make do with 1,000 euros a month and live on the edge of the subsistence level. Today, most people in Switzerland can live from their work. This is important, because it also maintains social peace.
With regard to art and artists, I think that talent grows wherever it wants to grow. I do not see that much talent at the moment, but that may come again. This is my personal feeling, and it is a difficult subject. This feeling has to do with the fact that I do not have access to contemporary art. I always make comparisons with the giants whom I myself was privileged to get to know and with their works. In my view, there are no such geniuses today. Picasso, for example, is much more a part of the 21st century, with his groundbreaking late work. He has not really died at all, but is still present.
Xecutives.net: Dear Ms Rosengart, I would like to thank you very much for this conversation and wish you all the best and continued success with your collection and the art business.
© 2008 by Christian Dueblin. All rights reserved. Other publications are only permitted with the express permission of the author.
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Links:
– Homepage of the Rosengart Collection, Lucerne
– The Rosengart Collection: Catalogue of the Sammlung Rosengart Luzern (Art & Design S.), on Amazon
